Eternal Security

Can a believer lose their salvation?

Is salvation maintained and kept by our works, as well as faith in Christ?

Is salvation temporary or permanent?

This is a very important issue a Christian can deal with after trusting in the Saviour for eternal life. After hearing the gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”) we hear the gospel, the word of truth, and believe that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose the third day.

Some people teach that once we are born again and saved and sealed, we have to free ourselves from sin and live our lives without any sin, or we will lose our salvation. However, we will show that this is a false teaching, as our salvation is completely based on faith in Christ and what he did for us.

To believe means to trust or to depend upon the Saviour who is Jesus Christ. We need faith, not works, when we hear that we need to be saved. We stop trusting or depending in our goodness or our religious deeds and only trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. This is repentance (please see our page on repentance for salvation for more information).

When we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ we are saved and given eternal life (John 3:15-18, Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:5, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:11, Philippians 3:9).

As it said above in Ephesians 1:13, after we hear and then believe we are “sealed with that holy Spirit of promise”. We have been sealed by God’s Spirit as it says again in Ephesians 4:30, “And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”

love-castle-832120_1920.jpgThe Bible says that we are sealed until the day of redemption, we cannot be unsealed. God has you, and nobody (including yourself) can undo what he has done. Philippians 1:6 says “Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:” and 1 Corinthians 1:8, “Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” The day of Jesus Christ is when Christ shall come in the clouds with a shout to gather his elect (Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27, 2 Peter 3:10).

When this day comes, our bodies shall be redeemed, Romans 8:23 “And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”

So when that day comes when our Lord returns we shall be caught up and have a new body fashioned like unto his. In the mean time, he shall continue the good work performed in us until that day. He shall confirm us until that day so we may be blameless.

No individual can keep himself blameless on his own righteousness until Christ returns, it is God himself that began the work and it will be God who shall finish the work! Jonah 2:9, …Salvation is of the Lord”.

Again, the Bible speaks of believers being sealed by the Holy Spirit in 2 Corinthians 1:22, “Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.” By sealing us he gives us the earnest of the Spirit, this shows us we are his, and he is serious on his promise to us, Titus 1:2 “In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”.

God does not lie and wants us to know we have everlasting life and cannot lose it, 1 John 5:13 says “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”

Everlasting life is life that lasts forever. It is a free gift from God to us through his Son. Jesus made the purchase (Acts 20:28, 1 Peter 1:18-19). We cannot save ourselves or keep ourselves saved. This is such an important word God uses in the Bible, “saved”. When we believe on the Lord Jesus we are saved, it does not say we are ‘safe’.

When we believe, we pass from death unto life as John 5:24 states, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

1 Peter 1:4-5 “To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” Peter explains our inheritance is incorruptible, undefiled, doesn’t fade away and is reserved in heaven.

This inheritance spoken of is eternal, as we shall one day be joint heirs with Christ and inherit all things. Our inheritance is reserved and cannot be touched by us or anyone else. We are kept by God’s power by faith not works, it is not our own power that keeps us.

Jude 24 says, “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,”. God is the one who keeps us from falling and shall present us faultless before his throne, he shall do it with exceeding joy too. We cannot keep ourselves from falling. 

We cannot lose what God purchased, what God has freely given and what he even keeps, God promised to give us eternal life and is not a liar so will not go back on what he said.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God, nothing. Romans 8:38-39: “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Death cannot separate us. Neither can life, that means what you do with this life you live can still not separate you. Angels cannot separate you, that includes devils and Satan. Other creatures including people cannot separate us from the love of God.

Jesus repeatedly preached that if you believe on him you hath everlasting life. How foolish and insulting is it to the Lord Jesus to say when we sin or do something wrong or stop following that you no longer have everlasting life.

Jesus said to a large multitude, he that believeth (present tense) hath (present tense) everlasting life (life that lasts forever, from that moment of salvation). John 6:47, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”

The way to have everlasting life is by faith, not works. Ye must be born again, when we hear the word of God and believe we are then saved and the Holy Spirit brings our spirit to life and we are begotten as a son of God like Jesus himself and have been adopted. God performs this and we trust him.

How can your spirit be quickened (brought to life) then die if you sin in the flesh?

How can you be a child of God then no longer be a son if you don’t live a perfect life?

How can salvation be of faith then be of works?

Galatians 3:1-3 says, “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”

Paul called the saints at Galatia foolish because someone deceived them and taught to obey the law as well as believe! They were bewitched and thought that after they were saved and began in the Spirit they had to be made perfect by the flesh. This is referring to what we do in our own goodness, our own works.

Romans 7:18, “For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.” Paul said in his flesh dwells no good thing. We cannot please God by our works but rather by our faith (Hebrews 11:6, But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”)

Paul even says to the Philippians in chapter 3:4-8 “Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,”.

If any of them think they can trust in their flesh Paul said that he could more than they, he lists attributes and how he obeyed the law and was blameless but all of this is a loss to the knowledge of Jesus Christ our Lord. He said he counted them dung that he may win Christ. Paul’s good works was compared to waste because in Christ alone is life.

We are always warned about false prophets creeping in unawares that lie in wait to deceive. This happened to the Galatians, as they had heretics preach another gospel to them that was different to what Paul and the disciples preached, so Paul said let them be accursed. 

Adding works to the gospel corrupts it and changes it so it is no longer the pure message of good news from heaven to sinners that God did something for them that they can have life and not come into condemnation, but rather they teach it is what is done by sinners to equate themselves to the holy and righteous God in heaven through their own good works.

By adding works to the grace of God it is no longer of grace.

Romans 11:6, “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” The Bible is clear that it is either works OR grace, not both.

In Acts 15, men from Judea came and taught believers that they had to be circumcised or they cannot be saved. This is heresy as it adds works and if you are circumcised to earn salvation then Christ shall profit you nothing. If you try to obey the law of circumcision then you have to keep the whole law as well (Galatians 5:2-6).

This frustrates the grace of God because by adding works to the gospel it makes void the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus. Galatians 2:21, “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” Jesus Christ died for nothing if we have to obey commandments to have his righteousness.

The Bible is clear that if you do not believe God has given us eternal life, then you make him a liar because it is through God’s record for us that we can know he will give us eternal life if we believe on his Son. 1 John 5:10-11 says, “He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.”

When God the Father sees you trust in his Son, he seals you with his Spirit. God is amazing and so is his grace that he has shed abroad to all men.

John 10:27-29, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”

Jesus Christ gives you eternal life, you shall never perish, nor shall any man pluck you out of his hand. Even if that is not good enough, he explains further and says no man is able to pluck you out of the Father’s hand either.

Remember, if you are saved then you must remember your life is already with Christ in heaven (Colossians 3:3, “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”) Your life is hid with Christ in God, nobody can pluck you out of his hand even if they could find you.

When I heard what the Bible said, I trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ. Before this, I never knew anything about the scriptures but when I heard I was condemned before God and deserve hell, I grabbed onto the Saviour by faith who I never had seen, heard or touched and he saved a sinner like me.

It still crossed my mind whether I could still end up in hell and I came across countless teachings, preachers, articles and videos that taught you can and will lose your salvation if you don’t live right or if you continue to sin. This is hypocrisy – they sin and continue to. If they are to be consistent they should preach that you must be perfect and you will be saved. This is what every other faith, sect, religion or cult teaches, that you must obey or you lose your salvation.

The most important thing to remember is that Jesus had to die to pay the penalty for our sin. If we forget this and try to bring about our own righteousness by living perfect lives, we are saying that Jesus shedding his blood for us was not enough. Galatians 2:21, “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”

We hope and pray you read this and find peace and comfort in the Saviour and his words. God is not the author of confusion, this is confusion if it were of works and grace. Remember the words of Jesus Christ in Hebrews 13:5, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee”. No matter what we do, once we are born again, we belong to Christ. 

Please let us know if this helped you and if you did trust in the Lord to save you.

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4 thoughts on “Eternal Security

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  1. We are saved by faith through love:
    Gal 4: 5-6 “5 We are led by the Spirit to wait in the confident hope of saving justice through faith,
    6 since in Christ Jesus it is not being circumcised or being uncircumcised that can effect anything — only faith working through love.”
    We are saved by God’s grace alone. There is nothing we can do by ourselves prior to conversion in Christ that will save us.
    But that does not mean that we cannot lose our salvation. There is an abundance of evidence in scripture that we can.
    Rom 8:28 “28 We are well aware that God works with those who love him, those who have been called in accordance with his purpose, and turns everything to their good.”
    “God works with those who love him,”. God knows from eternity who will respond to Him, and He works with those.
    “Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5).”
    The Bible gives does give evidence that the new birth “can be taken away.”
    Rom 8:38-39 does not mean that one cannot lose one’s salvation. That is not what Romans 8:38-39 says. What Rom 8:38-39 says is that: Neither “death”, “life”, “angels” “demons”, “the present” “the future”, “any powers”, “neither height nor depth”, “nor anything else in all creation”, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    That is what it says. All these things are external to us.
    Paul clearly teaches that a person can choose to turn away from God himself. No one or thing can take someone from God, but a person can choose to move away from God.
    Once saved always saved is absolutely unscriptural. Those who believe it have strayed far from the teachings of Christ. It has become a slogan which cannot be scrutinised or questioned without people being “offended” and unable to examine and consider the weight of the biblical evidence against it.

    Gal 5: 1, 4 “1 Christ set us free, so that we should remain free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be fastened again to the yoke of slavery.
    4 …. then you have separated yourself from Christ, you have fallen away from grace.”

    1 Tim 5:15 “15 there are already some who have turned aside to follow Satan.”

    Heb 3:14 “14 because we have been granted a share with Christ only if we keep the grasp of our first confidence firm to the end.”

    Heb 6: 4-6 “4 As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit,
    5 and tasted the goodness of God’s message and the powers of the world to come
    6 and yet in spite of this have fallen away — it is impossible for them to be brought to the freshness of repentance a second time, since they are crucifying the Son of God again for themselves, and making a public exhibition of him.”

    2 Pet 2:15, 20 “15 They have left the right path and wandered off to follow the path of Balaam son of Bosor, ….. 20 and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world by coming to know our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled and mastered by it a second time, ends up by being worse than he was before.”

    1 Sam 11:6, 18 : 12
    11: 6 “6 And the spirit of Yahweh seized on Saul when he heard these words,
    18: 12 “12 Saul feared David, since Yahweh was with him and had withdrawn from Saul.”

    Ezek 18: 24, 18:24 “24 ‘But if the upright abandons uprightness and does wrong by copying all the loathsome practices of the wicked, is he to live? All his upright actions will be forgotten from then on; for the infidelity of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, he will most certainly die.”
    Ezek 33:13 “13 (f)Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that he has committed he shall die.”

    Col 1:21-23 “21 You were once estranged and of hostile intent through your evil behaviour;
    22 now he has reconciled you, by his death and in that mortal body, to bring you before himself holy, faultless and irreproachable-
    23 as long as you persevere and stand firm on the solid base of the faith, never letting yourselves drift away from the hope promised by the gospel,”

    Rev 2: 4-5 “4 Nevertheless, I have this complaint to make: you have less love now than formerly.
    5 Think where you were before you fell; repent, and behave as you did at first, or else, if you will not repent, I shall come to you and take your lamp-stand from its place.”
    Rev 3: “14 ‘Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea and say, “Here is the message of the Amen, the trustworthy, the true witness, the Principle of God’s creation:15 I know about your activities: how you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were one or the other,16 but since you are neither hot nor cold, but only lukewarm, I will spit you out of my mouth.

    Rom 11 :22 “22 Remember God’s severity as well as his goodness: his severity to those who fell, and his goodness to you as long as you persevere in it; if not, you too will be cut off.”
    1 Tim 5:8, “If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”
    John 15:5-6 “5 I am the vine, you are the branches.
    6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch — and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt.”
    To “not remain” in Jesus means that we were in Jesus in the first place, therefore, can separate ourselves from Him.

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    1. Waterandthespirit,

      I don’t think you fully read my article or fully addressed it because many points you brought up were covered in the article. So my reply to your comment is this:

      The first point you said I believe was supposed to come from Galatians 5 not chapter 4. Just to stop you there, Galatians is in my opinion one of the strongest new testament books against works in addition to salvation as you seem to be preaching. It’s funny that you quote verse 5-6 and not verse 4 “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” Only then can we read and understand the next verses (keeping in mind what Paul said in the first 4 chapters). Now v5-6 “For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. [6] For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
      Notice we wait through the spirit, not ourselves. For the HOPE of righteousness by FAITH. What you said and the way you quoted it (the bible version you used didn’t help) says the opposite to what you preached.

      I agree there is nothing we can do to save ourselves before conversion. Again I addressed this with Galatians 3:1-6 in my article “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? [2] This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [3] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? [4] Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. [5] He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? [6] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
      Someone had BEWITCHED them, tricked them, lied to them, deceived them to think after conversion they could be made perfect by the flesh. Paul called such FOOLS for believing this, as if it’s the work of God’s holy spirit then your perseverance in this life that keeps you secure. As I said in the article you don’t believe people are saved, you believe they are just ‘safe’, if I said to you there were two people trapped in a burning building, one is (right now) saved and the other is safe. Anyone would conclude the one who is saved is no longer in the burning building but the other is currently safe but still in danger. This is what you believe and teach.
      I quoted the Lord Jesus from John 5:24, when he said if you believe you have passed from death unto life, please address this if you think it teaches differently in your mind to what I said.

      Now you quoted Romans 8 and said that it does teach that a believer can lose their salvation (Again it teaches the opposite). If you end up in the lake of fire which is the second death, do you think you are embraced with God’s love, or do you think there is now a separation from his love? Again I addressed this point that death or life cannot separate us, nor can any creature or angel or principality. To include something else in this list would be adding to God’s word to prop up your doctrine.

      You then said a person can choose to turn away from Christ. This doesn’t mean there eternal life (which never ends) is taken from them, especially not when it is a free gift.
      2 Timothy 2:13
      “If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.” He abides faithful and doesn’t deny himself, God cannot lie.

      Firstly I never said the words one saved always saved, nor did I mention anything about being offended, you yourself have shown who gets offended. I do believe when Christ saves you you are saved, just like his death, burial and resurrection, it only happened once just like salvation is once.

      Again Galatians 5:1 doesn’t help you or your doctrine. Galatians 5:1 “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” Paul is following on from Chapter 4 about the bondwoman and the freewoman, this is after he speaks about being free in Christ in the first 3 chapters, not being entangled in the yoke of bondage of works or religion like the Jews were.

      1Timothy 5:14-15 says:
      “I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. [15] For some are already turned aside after Satan.”
      Paul says in chapter 5 about treating elders, widows then mentions the young women in verse 15 which you ripped out of context to teach your false doctrine. He said how they should behave because some have turned aside and not done the things he instructed. Did Peter lose his salvation when Christ turned to him and said “get thee behind me satan” of course not and while on Peter, did Peter lose his salvation when he denied the Lord three times?

      According to you Hebrews 6:4-6 teaches this, that would mean Peter or any other believer turned away could never be restored or could never come to repentance. If you read Hebrews 5:11-14 first you get the context, they are babes in Christ and need to grow otherwise they won’t bring forth fruit and won’t be blessed but cursed, Christ gives the same analogy in John 15 about abiding in him as he is the vine. Before that in Hebrews it compares salvation to rest, and you enter in by FAITH, if by faith then you have ceased from your own works. Later on in Hebrews 6:19 it says we have an anchor of the soul, sure and steadfast within the veil (within the holiest of all) which shall never move because Jesus has gone in before us.

      In 2Peter chapter 2, the entire chapter explains about False prophets, not believers who then go wrong and lose their salvation. They are wolves in sheep’s clothing, not sheep.

      Now we come to King Saul, I believe this is the only legitimate argument put forward.
      Firstly Saul was a man who was changed by God himself and given a new heart 1 Samuel 10:9 “And it was so , that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.”
      Also was a man whom the holy spirit came upon in chapter 10 and again in 11:6.
      Saul was a carnal man, a man who followed his flesh and emotions and wasn’t obedient, that’s why the spirit of the Lord left him. But does that mean he lost his salvation and went to hell, no.
      1 Samuel 28:19 “Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”
      The scriptures said Samuel said to Saul that the next day Saul and his sons (including Jonathan) shall die and be with him. Samuel was not in hell.

      Ezekiel 18 and 33 Is talking about physical death, not about eternal salvation. He uses the example of the watchmen warning the people of coming danger, if you applied it spiritually then apply it but never by compromise, especially not with salvation.

      Again missing the context in Colossians 1. Colossians 1:5-6
      “For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; [6] Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it , and knew the grace of God in truth:” Paul first says that our hope is laid up in heaven, that we have been placed in Christ in heavenly places. I already addressed this too with (Philippians 1:6, 1Corinthians 1:8, 1Peter 1:4-5, Jude 24, Colossians 3:3)
      I could have used numerous more verses in this article.

      Revelation 2 and 3 Christ is speaking to churches (true believers) and the candlestick is the church, not their salvation.
      Again Romans 11 used out of context and the text I used before that you never addressed Romans 11:6 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
      It is either WORKS or GRACE, not BOTH.

      Again in 1Timothy 5 and verse 8 speaks of not providing for your household. If anyone should provide for their families it should be christians, we are to be sacrificial and put others first, you are not following the faith if you don’t, you can deny by your works and the deeds you do. That doesn’t mean you lose your salvation.

      Don’t mix works and God’s grace because it cannot be both.

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      1. Hethatovercometh,
        At first sight your response sounds very convincing. But on further analysis it falls to pieces.
        I have indeed not addressed all the points you raise as we disagree on so many things, but I focused rather upon the one thing, what you term “Eternal Security”, which others refer also to as “once saved always saved”.
        You say: “Galatians is in my opinion one of the strongest new testament books against works in addition to salvation ……. It’s funny that you quote verse 5-6 and not verse 4 “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
        To stop you there, as you put it, Paul says: “ye are fallen from grace”. That means that you had grace and now have lost it because of your attachment to the law. That in itself should put a stop to all this argumentation. It shows one can fall from grace. But of course you are not able to conceive of such a reading because of your prejudice against it, it would demolish one of your most cherished beliefs.
        You continue: “Only then can we read and understand the next verses (keeping in mind what Paul said in the first 4 chapters). Now v 5-6 “For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. [6] For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
        Notice we wait through the spirit, not ourselves. For the HOPE of righteousness by FAITH.” I fully agree with you that we come to righteousness by faith.
        You continue: “What you said and the way you quoted it (the bible version you used didn’t help) says the opposite to what you preached.” I’m not sure what you mean by “what you preached”, you may be assuming something, I do not know.
        I think your analogy about the burning building and the person who is “saved” and the person who is “safe” is a good one. It is a good way to express the difference between us. Analogies are not perfect, but they give us a good idea of differences.
        You say: “I quoted the Lord Jesus from John 5:24, when he said if you believe you have passed from death unto life, please address this if you think it teaches differently in your mind to what I said.” I believe exactly what John says, that through faith we pass from death into life. Eternal life. (By way of example here, the angels were created perfect and good by God, but some rebelled against him, first they were “saved”, but were consigned to hell by their turning away from God.)
        You say: “Now you quoted Romans 8 and said that it does teach that a believer can lose their salvation (Again it teaches the opposite). ….Again I addressed this point that death or life cannot separate us, nor can any creature or angel or principality. To include something else in this list would be adding to God’s word to prop up your doctrine.” I repeat what you say: “TO ADD SOMETHING ELSE IN THIS LIST WOULD BE ADDING TO GOD”S WORD”. That is exactly the point! I am adding NOTHING to this list! The list DOES NOT SAY that one cannot turn away from God, which is your ASSUMPTION, it is not there, by assuming this you are adding to Paul’s list!

        You say: “You then said a person can choose to turn away from Christ. This doesn’t mean there eternal life (which never ends) is taken from them, especially not when it is a free gift.” God’s gifts are always free. His gift of eternal life to the angels was free, but some of them, the fallen angels, turned away from him and reaped the consequences of their actions.
        You did indeed not mention anything about “once saved always saved”, but your eternal security doctrine bears the same hallmarks.
        You say: “I do believe when Christ saves you you are saved, just like his death, burial and resurrection, it only happened once just like salvation is once.” I do believe that when Christ saves you you are saved, that you are being saved, and that you will be saved, but that you can renounce this salvation by sinning gravely against God, which is rejection of his grace.
        You say: “Again Galatians 5:1 doesn’t help you or your doctrine. Galatians 5:1 “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” Paul is following on from Chapter 4 about the bondwoman and the freewoman, …..” You fail to address Gal 5:4 “4 once you seek to be reckoned as upright through the Law, then YOU HAVE SEPARATED YOURSELF FROM CHRIST, YOU HAVE FALLEN AWAY FROM GRACE.” Paul could not be clearer that it is possible to separate oneself from Christ and to fall from grace. Your “stick your head in the sand” approach does not help you. To separate yourself from Christ, you have to be part of Christ in the first place, to fall away from grace, you must be in a state of grace before.
        You say: “1 Timothy 5:14-15 says:
        “I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. [15] For some are already turned aside after Satan.”
        Paul says in chapter 5 about treating elders, widows then mentions the young women in verse 15 which you ripped out of context to teach your false doctrine. He said how they should behave because some have turned aside and not done the things he instructed. Did Peter lose his salvation when Christ turned to him and said “get thee behind me Satan” of course not and while on Peter, did Peter lose his salvation when he denied the Lord three times?”
        That we lose our salvation does not mean that we cannot repent and return to God. If we sincerely repent, he will always take us back into the fold.
        Peter did not lose his salvation because he repented. Matt 26:75 “75 and Peter remembered what Jesus had said, ‘Before the cock crows you will have disowned me three times.’ And he went outside and wept bitterly.” Whereas Judas, who betrayed Jesus, did not. He went and hung himself.
        You say: “In 2 Peter chapter 2, the entire chapter explains about False prophets, not believers who then go wrong and lose their salvation. They are wolves in sheep’s clothing, not sheep.” Yet Peter says in verse 20: “20 and ANYONE who has escaped the pollution of the world by COMING TO KNOW OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, and WHO THEN allows himself to be entangled and mastered by it a second time, ENDS UP BEING WORSE THAN HE WAS BEFORE.” That seems pretty straightforward to me.
        You say: “Saul was a carnal man, a man who followed his flesh and emotions and wasn’t obedient, that’s why the spirit of the Lord left him. But does that mean he lost his salvation and went to hell, no. ….. The scriptures said Samuel said to Saul that the next day Saul and his sons (including Jonathan) shall die and be with him. Samuel was not in hell.”
        The Jews believed at that time that when you died your soul went to Sheol, which generally represents “the place of the dead” in the Old Testament. Both the righteous and the unrighteous go there, in Christian terms they are waiting for judgement. In 1 Samuel 28:16 “16 Samuel said, ‘Why consult me, when YAHWEH has abandoned you and HAS BECOME YOUR ENEMY?” it is clear that Saul has become God’s enemy, not only through his disobedience but also his necromancy. There is no hint in scripture that Saul repented, and on that basis we cannot assume he is in heaven. Saul does evil deeds, and Paul tells us that those who do evil deeds will not enter the kingdom of God. Paul says in 1 Cor 6:10 “9 Do you not realise that PEOPLE WHO DO EVIL will never inherit the kingdom of God? Make no mistake — the sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, the self-indulgent, sodomites,10 thieves, misers, drunkards, slanderers and swindlers, none of these will inherit the kingdom of God.”
        Paul teaches that “THEY WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD”. Your argument on Saul fails.
        You say: “Ezekiel 18 and 33 Is talking about physical death, not about eternal salvation. He uses the example of the watchmen warning the people of coming danger, if you applied it spiritually then apply it but never by compromise, especially not with salvation.” Why do you say that God is talking about physical death here? Both the upright and the wicked die physically. God’s lesson here would be nonsensical. But you have to take this approach in order to hang on to your cherished Eternal Assurance.
        Col 1:21-23 “21 You were once estranged and of hostile intent through your evil behaviour;
        22 now he has reconciled you, by his death and in that mortal body, to bring you before himself holy, faultless and irreproachable-
        23 as long as you persevere and stand firm on the solid base of the faith, never letting yourselves drift away from the hope promised by the gospel,”You say: “Again missing the context in Colossians 1. Colossians 1:5-6 …..Paul first says that our hope is laid up in heaven, that we have been placed in Christ in heavenly places. I already addressed this too with (Philippians 1:6, 1Corinthians 1:8, 1Peter 1:4-5, Jude 24, Colossians 3:3).” Our hope is indeed laid up in heaven, and we have indeed been placed in Christ. That in no way detracts from what Paul says here. “NOW HE HAS RECONCILED YOU …… AS LONG AS YOU PERSEVERE AND STAND FIRM …. NEVER LETTING YOURSELF DRIFT AWAY ….”. Sounds pretty clear to me.
        You say: “Revelation 2 and 3 Christ is speaking to churches (true believers) and the candlestick is the church, not their salvation.”
        Rev 2:5 “5 Think where you were before you fell; repent, and behave as you did at first, or else, if you will not repent, I shall come to you and take your lamp-stand from its place.” If Christ removes the church from the Ephesians, what do you think they are left with?
        Rev 3:16 “16 but since you are neither hot nor cold, but only lukewarm, I will spit you out of my mouth.” If Christ spits the Laodiceans from his mouth, where do you think that leaves them?
        You say: “Again Romans 11 used out of context and the text I used before that you never addressed Romans 11:6 “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
        It is either WORKS or GRACE, not BOTH.” Despite what you might think, we both agree here that there is nothing one can do to earn one’s salvation. We have salvation by grace alone, with faith working through love. A pure gift from God. Grace cannot be earned. This is what the Catholic church teaches. I won’t go into “faith alone” here, and as I said in the beginning I only want to deal with “eternal assurance” at this stage. I’m quite happy to cover more ground later should you so wish.
        The point of difference is: can we lose that salvation? That is what we have been discussing.
        I did not use Romans 11 “out of context”. It reads: “Rom 11 :22 “22 Remember God’s severity as well as his goodness: his severity to those who fell, and his goodness to you as long as you persevere in it; if not, you too will be cut off.” Paul clearly says that WE CAN BE CUT OFF. Refer to John 15:5-6 “5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing.6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch — and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt.” Jesus says”CUT OFF FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING …. THESE BRANCHES ….. ARE BURNT.” Again, pretty clear to me.
        You say: “Again in 1 Timothy 5 and verse 8 speaks of not providing for your household. If anyone should provide for their families it should be Christians, we are to be sacrificial and put others first, you are not following the faith if you don’t, you can deny by your works and the deeds you do. That doesn’t mean you lose your salvation.
        You go so far as to say: “you can deny by your works and the deeds you do.”, but you can’t bring yourself to repeat what Paul says: “he has disowned the faith” and “is worse than an unbeliever.” You say: That doesn’t mean you lose your salvation.” Yet these are Paul’s words, “disowned the faith” and “worse than an unbeliever”. Words have meaning you know. They are not just things that we can pretend they are not there. This is the Word of God, and making excuses gets you nowhere.
        1 Tim 5:8, “If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his own family, he has disowned the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.”
        You say: “Don’t mix works and God’s grace because it cannot be both.”
        That’s going back to “faith alone”, for another time perhaps.

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